Chatting with an Expert on Narcissism

Hey Amanda Hales, I’m here with dr. Ramani Durvasula Author of should I stay or should I go? Surviving a relationship with a narcissist. She is a professor at Cal State Los Angeles Yeah, how long you been there? Yea, almost 20 years. Wow, UHMMMMMMMMMMrip They actually would and we’d come up with robot partners for them to have sex with and won’t that be a great alternate universe? So they weren’t lucky enough or they’d all make more they just have oh, no, they’re narcissists But I don’t want them to have kids because they destroy their kids because then there’d be no one offering the kids empathy So if we could sort of put them in sort of some sort of island or they don’t breed But they’re together that might actually work. Oh, yeah No, I mean that since that that no, I was sort of like, you know that sort of dystopian future is not one that I ever want, but I don’t I know so a narcissist Comes to you for help. Yes. What do you how do you help them? Usually they come with a set problem They don’t say making me They say and will you believe my merits? Well, 99% of them. Don’t admit it, right? They’re most. Oh, yeah, right They don’t and you know yours rare You know what? It is to call someone a narcissist is almost like calling them a name, you know Cuz it’s not usually doesn’t and it’s not a word that carries positive connotations I actually when I’m talking to the client would really break it down Like you really do lack empathy or you really are deeply entitled or wow. You really are grandiose and instead of saying Hey, here’s a cake I’m like, well, there’s some flour and some sugar and some eggs and that stuff’s all hanging out together and becomes a cake You know, so I’m trying to avoid calling it a cake You know and in talking about the specific sub facets of it and here’s the rub. What’s really hard is that Things like relationships they can get out of but once they become a parent I mean, they really are on a collision course to destroy that poor kids life Well, I’m not even trying to it’s not like I want to destroy my own like they’re just not fit for parenting or too selfish So do they have souls Everybody has a soul if Charles Manson had a soul I’m sure it was quite dark and twisted but every human being has a soul Um, I think what we’re talking about is what do we as a society? Value in another person. I’ma be so stone-cold honest with you Andrew Narcissism is a recipe for success. You show me a single CEO or world leader who’s not a narcissist and I’ll give you a buck hmm Bill Gates Bill Gates probably had a nut heap. He actually really squelched and crushed his competitors when Microsoft was coming up Well, that’s just normal business is it or is it lack of empathy? We don’t know we call his wife I’ve got to tell you why it’s all all reports I must say that Bill Gates and and his wife have donated an Ordinate of sums to charity a lot of which is doing good works. He’s clearly had kids We don’t were not privy to the inside of his world But I will say that in order for a Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or a George Soros or any of these people to have become what they became They had to have a fair amount of grandiosity They did they have Steve Jobs had to have that vision that no one else did you should make Apple Apple now? That grandiosity It’s almost like the human spirit is where there’s a lot of trade-offs, right? when there’s a lot of grandiosity other things have to give you almost have to have that vision has to encompass and Consume you so in that way I have friends who are narcissists and they serve a purpose in my life They’re smart. They’re scintillating I sure as hell would never go to them with a problem And I wouldn’t go to them at times in my life is vulnerable So when my I’m going through a rough patch, I’m not gonna call them. I ain’t gonna return their calls I can’t be bothered you don’t hang out with them. Um short periods of time though, it’s good Always whenever a party you want a few narcissists there keep the conversation going They’re definitely good to have in your back pocket for parties and other events. It sounds like you’re just you’re you’re kind of Labeling just self-confident people. No, no because self-confident people can be self-confident and still have empathy Hmm and not be entitled and not be superficial and not constantly be seeking admiration. Mm-hmm A lot of these YouTube stars. Are you consider them? Narcissists? Are you trying to get a free therapy? Yeah You know what yes, I think some of them are because mostly vlogging Blah vlogging. It’s so funny You say that I was recently exposed to this concept of vlogging through my students some University professor And I remember looking at what they showed me and I really my face was perplexed and I went sort of offline to some students And privately I said what just what did I just witness? They’re like Oh doc. That’s just vlogging I’m like, this is completely self referential crazy validation seeking stuff They’re like, yeah, I never heard of put that way but they’re like yo, and it was literally this this person was documenting Moment by moment of their lives. Yeah as though anybody would care Okay. Yeah cares that you couldn’t find a parking spot. Who cares that you bought this kind of orange juice I was like, right So how is that person ever gonna function in the adult world where there’s actually real? Responsibilities and nobody wants a play-by-play of your life. It’s yeah it took me a long time to figure out Before I started doing here And a lot of people they it’s not about entertainment necessarily, right? They were a lot of my audience they watch and they feel like they feel like they’re hanging out with me Okay, and I mean and they know they’re that we’re not friends but if I feels and but they like the feeling of maybe hanging out with me and it’s very laid-back and it’s more about Connecting with this person and it’s kind of like a connection Linda it’s not really sugar. Right it’s like fake or not. You’re not well you don’t respond to that See, that’s what I’m talking about that sometimes I do to their comment to their comments So that’s another thing that makes you to different from networks and entertainment, right? But so I guess where it comes to is and that but it raises an interesting sort of word an interesting sort of historical Juncture where narcissism is concerned A lot of what a narcissist is not able to do is engage in what we call a mutual Reciprocal relationship where there’s give and take. Mm-hmm I asked you how your day is and I actually care and then The next step in that dance is you ask me about my day you really care how my day is I actually do it so it’s in the morning and actually when I was late and I felt terrible about So what have you been doing since you woke up, um getting ready and I got coffee it took Bonnie for a walk. Mm-hmm I’m just prepping just looking at my nose. What time did you get up Oh Eight o’clock. Is that your like usual wake up time? No, I’m usually a night out I’ll sleep in but this thing was in the morning. Okay, so you got up early you got your thing Everything’s really neat and clean. Yes I must say, um, you know, and and like did you have any I don’t know like I always say like did any Bombs go off this morning ago. Was it a sort of a normal normal day? Yeah good Yeah, I’m actually curious about that because I’m curious about you and then again why we use why are you late? I was late because my Because my Nose David Onley traffic Kelly traffic and then I had to get him somewhere But I wanted to see him off because he’s leaving for a few days. And so I wanted to have a moment I thought oh a I get you off a 45 I get to Hollywood by 9:00 and I was this is holy wall of Traffic, but how and then I realized another road was closed and then there I think and this is not a part of town I driving in the mornings. I didn’t know the rhythms as well. And so that’s why that happened and that’s era that’s totally fine Like you’re doing me a favor. Well, I appreciate that. But you see that dance of conversation is what my concern Is that for example, if someone’s a vlogger or someone’s it’s a one-sided conversation? So in other words, then you’re really sort of peering into someone else’s life versus engaging them Both of you getting needs met what happened? Then you don’t get practiced in that because that’s a skill to have the give-and-take of a human relationship So you think people that watch blogs? It’s it’s unhealthy Um, I think if they over watch it becomes a substitute for real human relationships. Yes, or if it’s a compliment No, I mean I think then it may be a form of entertainment in a way. It may be a Again, this is where I as a psychologist have to suspend this belief and today Maybe this is going to become a new form of interaction that people have in addition to real human interaction Yeah I just don’t think that the way the species has been doing things for tens if not hundreds of thousands of years is going to Change in ten years with the advent of YouTube and iPhones. I just don’t think that’s how evolution works I think it’s going to take time and so when somebody uses vlogging or observing vlogging as a Substitute for human contact and then we there’s research that just came out that showed that actually young adults would often turn Millennials and maybe even a little younger are reporting the highest rates of loneliness loneliness that that group has ever reported Typically, it was a much older adults than reported that now Completely contrary to expectations its young adults that are reporting loneliness Despite all this blogging in social media because I don’t think it’s an adequate substitute. Yeah Well, it’s yeah, I mean everyone’s on their phones right everyone’s on their phones Yeah, and it’s a you’re getting this, you know, this dopamine hit every whatever and they’re just addicted Yeah So then my concern becomes then for as people get older when it comes down to the brass tacks and the heavy lifting for example of caregiving parenting taking care of older adults like older parents who get sick that Requires I mean parenting is nothing but an hourly sacrifice If not a minute by six-minute sacrifice for 20 years at a time free child Right, if a person so used to the quick dopamine hit of watching a vlog and then going doing what they wanting They’re gonna want they’re gonna be really frustrated as parents where it’s all given no take yeah hmm That concern so I’m gonna I’m gonna be a shitty parent unless you clean up your act Let’s see narcissus Can you spot narcissus without personally knowing them I? Can but like I’m almost like a big-game hunter who can like hear something in the bushes a mile away No, normally no because um, do you think I am? I’m getting to know you like I think that you’re very I’m I was trying to determine when I came in. You’re you’re shy Were you shy because you also felt a little distant, you know And like I’m tentative if you will like you’re not super warm and extroverted when you first meet you to fight no stretch And so yeah. No, you’re not that guy. My thing is the King awkward, you know before I dress pranks Yeah
Right and yet when you smile and you laugh you you warm up so quickly like you turn into someone entirely different really sweet Lovely and so I can see that it’s a different charm, you know But there’s a there’s a defense to you and that’s very that I mean in a narcissist that’s not uncommon It’s also not uncommon in someone who’s depressed or who’s socially anxious like there’s a whole range of things So what you might do is go doing a little trolling with them and seeing can they muster up empathy Ken are they entitled do? Let’s put it this way when I told you that was running late and this morning, Andrea You could have said you know what? I’m a very busy YouTube guy. Uh, you said 9:00 you didn’t come at 9:00 I value my time, you know what let’s not do this at all Let’s just do it at a day that it’s better for me. In fact, I didn’t even missed it on Wednesdays I’ve had a patient emergency so you didn’t do that That was a good sign because had you done that like really taken sort of a diva Sort of position with me you would have been well within your rights. We made an appointment and I didn’t honor it. However Entitlement would have been your react if you had that kind of reaction I don’t think I would have want to do business with you what but I am trying to get something out of you. Mm-hmm Yes, you are. I’m serving you so I’m being smart by not doing that You are being smart by not doing that but a narcissist may not even be able to hold back on that does that make sounds like this so Convinced I kind of impulsive Impulsive but also so convinced are they of how important they are that even though you’re saying? Oh, I’m getting something from her So I better not react like that Your entitlement could still have overridden that how do I know if someone’s being a narcissist or just as a confident? But you know watch house what really how circumspect they are there They can say they can be confident. Like I can say to you. I’m a really really good psychologist I really am like I’m good at what I do You know, but I’m always aware. There’s tons to learn I go to lots of extra classes I do tons of extra reading, you know, and I know that I don’t know everything and I don’t claim to be nekkid For example, I don’t know much about certain disorders. So I would refer those cases out and You know, it’s step away because it’s like sort of stay in your lane kind of thing So it’s that ability to know what you know, but also know what you don’t know people who are falsely or narcissistically confident No sort of claim to be this overarching expert like I’m the best a Hundred percent of my sales clothes like I’m the very best don’t go to anyone else. They can’t do anything for you I’m not gonna say that there’s dozens of great shrinks in this town, you know And if I don’t work for you find another one of them I just want you to end up in the best place is what I tell someone so they’re never born They’re only made. I mean I Feel like if they’re made then they can be unmade unlearned Unfortunately some of that early emotional learning that happens is really hard to undo. Here’s the rub Andrew There’s no incentive for them to change. If a narcissist said to me, I don’t like being this guy. I want to be empathic I don’t want to be entitled. I want to stop being grandiose and I want to be a man of depth Hmm I can work with that because there’s a motivation to change It’s like an addict saying I don’t want to stop using what am I? I can’t do anything So it’s like being addicted to power something. I detected to power addicted to validation. Mmm addicted to validation Yeah, you think all the social media is? Enhancing all the narcissists I do I do because it’s it’s a tool to mainline validation You don’t even have to go through the headaches of getting to know someone you can just have people like your stuff with no other Interaction, there’s a spectrum though, right? Yeah, of course everyone’s a little narcissus I Would say I don’t even like the word healthy narcissism because narcissism in and of itself really speaks to not caring about another person I think there’s a healthy need for validation Everybody likes to be told you’re pretty you’re nice you did. What a nice YouTube world You’ve created here Andrew because it is actually really cool. It’s amazing actually from Your video I really enjoyed seeing your videos. Like people want to hear. I love I write something people say Romney. That’s great But when it when it comes down to brass tacks I have to feel like I wrote something good from there on in everything has to be the icing on the cupcake, you know But you got to be the cupcake, you know, you cannot count on other people to build that whole thing up Narcissism is the idea that your self-esteem can only exist if you will, you can only really almost exist if other people validate you yeah, I mean Yeah, I definitely get depressed when I don’t upload, you know that’s that but that’s also Yeah, it’s my job so had a way that’s different. So if your job is to upload and do that, that’s what you do That’s how you support yourself That’s almost like me saying well, see I actually don’t get depressed if I’m not teaching if I get a break from teaching I’m thrilled if that makes sense okay, if but however I do get depressed when I’m kept from doing my writing which I love doing, but that’s Generative like I like creating the writing whether or not it gets out into the public So if you are contributing to society in a healthy way, yeah, and I’m posting a video I feel good about myself that’s not – because You post that video and nobody takes note of it not one person watches it or maybe only five people watch it or like it Could you endure that if you felt like it was a really good video that? Suck see and the question is how sucky it would be I agree with you like if I put if I Write a book and suck and try to sell a book and only like 500 or 400 people bought the book I’d be like, yeah, so I didn’t do something quite right. Yeah However, I still think the book is good Can you still say that so I might be a little sad like wow I just spent like two years of my life to make a dollar and I nobody wanted to read what I had to say bummer But I could step back and say this was one hell of a book the world either gets it or they don’t Can you say wow that video? I just pull up upload. That was a great video, right? The world didn’t get it But it’s a good video a little bit of sadness or a little bit of sort of feeling like a letdown. That’s normal But the idea that your world comes crashing down and it’s like I gotta get validation You see young woman do a lot of this like but something you’re seeing the way young women Instagram to like put up a lot of attention-seeking photos get past the ones who are really Commodifying it Like they’re using it to get like where someone’s say look at them wearing such and such a skirt so they can get the free Clothes or money or whatever they do It’s it’s validation seeking and you I’ve had clients say like I’m I’m downright depressed if I’m not getting likes and there’s a real dejection That’s that’s concerning because now you’re living your life in the service of the validation. So what are the simple differences between narcissism? psychopathy and sociopathy There’s several differences all psychopaths are narcissistic, but not all narcissists are psychopathic. Does that make sense? Okay, so it’s almost like one Nest’s and the other so these are psychopaths. They’re completely they’re all completely narcissistic The fact is of the Psychopaths have some other things additional issues the psychopath Rarely feels any remorse when they do something bad? So they’re willing to break rules hurt other people and they feel no guilt on Darce assist will actually feel guilty when they hurt someone Else what they feel more than guilt though is shame Narcissus do not like being publicly called out for their behavior right there. It’s very uncomfortable for them and they tend to get really Rageful and angry when they get called out But it’s uncomfortable a psychopath would be like screw you I don’t care if you think I did something wrong It’s almost like they make great drug kingpins or something like that Like they could brutally take people out and they just don’t care if it’s gonna get them what they want So if they’re like hey, if I kill him in him, then I’m gonna get my business. We’ll be fine They’re the ones they usually end up in jail. They end up in jail, but sometimes they also end up with CEOs Hmm because they’re able to eviscerate the way you need you to close deals and sociopaths So here’s a bag back to the born in May the best way to understand the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is Psychopaths are born and sociopaths are made and by that I mean the research on Psychopaths and psychopathy in general suggests that they may be wired differently that the part of them called their Autonomic nervous system is not as reactive So whereas a normal person might get anxious for example if they heard footsteps coming behind them on a darkened Street, or even you know Or they were about to do something wrong like transfer money out embezzle money normal people their heart would be racing they’d be sweating their pupils would be largely shouldn’t be doing this I shouldn’t be doing this a Psychopath of a click click done and they’d still go out and like play with their property kind of thing Like they just don’t care that is because they’re wired like that Nothing gets them anxious and they’re willing and able to do really bad things without feeling uncomfortable a Sociopath is made and that could be through a variety of things. They could be made through their environments They may have grown up in dangerous and violent environments They may have had to learn to survive that way They may have been raised by parents who are like basically gave them it like break the rules all you want if it helps you Get ahead. It may be that it’s somehow they can Acculturated Fame exactly that they may have been a relatively normal person. They get Fame to to young and If I had a dollar for every person who I’ve worked with who got screwed up by Fame early and they’re difficult to turn around Because there’s this expectation the world owes them something they don’t care who they have to harm to get there. That’s sociopathy They’re not born that way. They were actually and Psychopaths you tend to see These dangerous patterns of behavior before the age of 15 animal torture setting fires bullying peers beating up here stealing truancy Psychopaths tend to do that young that’s not necessarily the case incest you are you religious? I was raised in religion, but I’m not anymore. No No, so yeah our Psychopaths like just like demons like yeah. Yeah, I think in every culture they’re just not immemorial Psychopaths were the devils the demons the the evil spirits They were always built into every society because they’ve always existed in every society. No. Hope for them What do you what do you tell the narcissist to do then? I say like let’s work on little things That would make it easier for other people to be with you Okay, you know like for a lot of them I work on the rage for some of them I work on their coldness with narcissist tend to be Narcissus are very there’s this woman named Jean twang He’s a professor at San Diego State. She puts it beautifully She said a narcissist is like a piece of chocolate cake. The first few bites are great. And then you start to feel sick That’s what it’s like with the narcissus. The first few fork holes are just The charming and handsome. Yeah on and then after you eat the whole cake You’re like Oh feel well like I don’t don’t eat the whole cake, huh? You know so great for one-night stand great for a fling. Yeah off to Paris with them for two weeks You should almost put an expiration date on a relationship with you It’s like putting go into your iPhone and say ah I’m gonna break up this person November 15th like much is like you’d have a dentist appointment And just let it run its term and get the hell out of Dodge. They’re always made And that’s connects then that’s sometimes by Fame. They can be made by Fame. And yeah, that’s But here’s the thing if a person is a real solid person. Mm-hmm, and they get their fame at 20 or 21 you might see what I call acquired and tied it like an acquired sense of entitlement and by that I mean When I spent time with her were books good, but I’ve working in the industry for years So people who are sort of famous and everything happens easily for them. They five first class They never wait in lines cars pick them up cars drop them off they can tend to get very short and dismissive with people because they get so used to that but the minute you pointed out them say hey slow down sister like I am NOT and they’ll be like oh my god I’m so sorry, you know and they’ll they’ll catch themselves and they’ll be really ashen whereas the person who’s truly narcissistic you’d be like This is me. Like I don’t wait in line, even though really take that stance Whereas a person who get comes into Fame and almost gets accustomed to things being easy there They might fall into it, but you can very easily pull them out. They’re not narcissistic It’s almost like they’re they’re victims of circumstance at that moment and when they have to return back to normal civilization They are able to do so. Yeah, like I think about like the beautiful girl It’s had you guys kiss up to her her whole life. And I think it’s it’s like a defense mechanism Right a defense mechanism on her part. Yeah, like she’s just so sick of it And so it’s like she doesn’t know how anyway else to act other than Brad Ian Yeah And and and also be though then this is a real conundrum for very beautiful young women is that they get Reinforced and validated for only their beauty for so long from a very young age because they’ve often started appearing It’s beautiful eleven. Twelve years old. Oh my god your daughter. So beautiful. You’re so beautiful and on and on they’ll go Is that the child learned to be found for their parents? That’s also a way to turn them at least into you know, maybe not even deep narcissist because deep narcissism starts in early childhood but at least you know At least deeply it’s a surface Narcissist and it may make them almost like they don’t tune into the needs of others and they do become very focused on that validation It’s really hard for those beautiful girls to age. That’s the only card that they’ve got to play You know, I must I go to school and you’re right, but unfortunately that’s often disincentivized for them You know, they’re told like, you know, focus on the beauty. It’s like a like buying a new car It loses value the minute you drive it off the law like with each minute They’re there thinking I’m gonna cash in on the beauty But by doing that you may lose a lot of those key educational years, so they’re often retreading They’re going back to school when they’re in their late 20s 30s, which is still great I mean, you know, I’ve also worked with lots of students here in LA Who were that young beautiful girl they modeled for while they acted for a while But they didn’t make it big and now they’re having to circle back and reconstruct a life And so at 35 they’re going back to school and learning to be whatever it is They want to be but it is hard because they do often feel like the world hasn’t queued up for me It’s the same with beautiful men. This is not just beautiful women I mean this this is not generally means that thick like you see you’re gonna get lost of being the beautiful YouTube hottie but it’s um it is very you have to be very careful to not play out that that If you have your parent and you have a really beautiful child to really say you’re the loveliest thing in the world to me But let them know it’s holistic like it’s because of how they laugh and how they, you know kids your kids Yeah poor my parents are the ones who are at the core of this who really almost overpraised that child in their beauty What do you suggest for? Our generation to prevent narcissism. Well, I think that unfortunately it’s one of those things where the seeds get sown early, you know so it’s like if you or if you have that kind of a Base to fight against being if you get that was your early childhood that’s one issue How do you sort of fight against the societal narcissism maybe more of your question or even in yourself like those narcissistic tendencies? I’d say put the phone down put the device down listen to real 3d people and people talk to you Listen to them 3d 3d like this like this is they see how my hands move and it’s not even now, you know It’s nice like actually not even VR. It’s actually my hand. It’s amazing like it’s amazing we can we keep trying to create robots and printers that make this thing that already has a Holograms are coming. Yeah holograms, right? So they talk to the real person make sure they are flesh and bone Put the device down listen to other people Be mindful, like think, you know think before you speak meditate meditate Oh Sasha Graham Yeah, learn, you know, be care. Don’t become social me to be a sort of like how you largely interact with the world Look, you know Understand that you have the freedom to choose your life strive to be authentic Understand the responsibilities that come with choice which can be a headache, but they’re great. It’s a choice It’s a choice all of these things are choices. Narcissism is a choice narcissism is not a choice. It’s or it’s in some ways It’s a reflex It’s a reflex if I have to fight against, you know So your tendency is to not empathize to be superficial because remember the narcissus has very very poorly regulated Self-esteem they’re empty inside. And so they need the outside to the inside. Yeah, not dead empty Mmm empty I think around relationships the more realistic you are The better the outcome is that you know relationships remain and the research has shown this over and over again More important than not smoking more important than not drinking more important than exercising or eating. Well is having healthy relationships in your life It’s literally the most important thing you could do for your health not only in the short term But definitely in the long term and this young generation of young people actually did in some cases see grandparents go on to older age but in a healthy Long-term relationship there. Were they made compromises And I do wonder what’s gonna happen in a generation where people don’t have that going later into like it’s all a wait-and-see You know, we may see more communal living living in older adults and which I think could also be healthy, too We always have to be open to the fact that this could go down in many different ways Are you worried about the future? I am I am actually I really am What do you how are you preparing? I’m probably I’m old so I get to retire and leave Okay I now move away to a very soft quiet gentle place and I’ll write I love to write now do clinical services with populations Who don’t usually get mental health services, and hmm. I work in India and I work in South Africa So I love doing that work and I think it’s really important with the training I have to give back to the world in a way that you know help those regions of the world capacity build and make sure that the most vulnerable citizens are heard and are taken care of especially women and women who have been abused or traumatized like that’s how I Would like to spend the rest of my story. It’s becoming very Darwinian out there and I think we should have evolved past that Darwinian meaning sofa survival of the fittest. Yeah. Yeah It doesn’t have to be that we’ve I think enough humanism has passed through the species that we should be able to be a bug That should get more spiritual. I I think evolved like I don’t think one person needs thirteen billion dollars Not when so many people are starving and don’t have clean water. You can’t make that argument to me. That’s not humane Yeah, that makes sense. So like one yacht’s good. Three yacht’s? Come on. Yeah, right, you know ten homes can’t live in them all at the same time. One island, one island, fine. you know ten homes can’t live in them
all at the same time one island one Whatever now I’m not even sure that even person needs one Little country. Yeah, right big really thirty cards, you know So I just have to say that I want to see more social conscience and I think I actually think that we’re having sort of a Epidemic of narcissism in the world at large not in individuals but like entire cultures and we’ve become very consumerist and materialistic That’s what’s gonna end up doing us in you soon Fight Club, huh? You know so funny you say that my students just yesterday allowed me. Dr. Du Bois So we want to watch Fight Club with you and I do film commentary so I watch films among cool construct film So I said Fight Club will be the first one we do. So maybe we’ll invite you to Intersections, but everyone says to me for narcissism researcher Well, you have to see my channel it barely has anything to do with it, but the name Le HW f stands for losing all hope was freedom Which is a quote from Fight Club. Okay Fight Club, right, right Yeah said that when I wrote my book a friend of mine Rob Mac. Who’s a Really amazing writer and and works actually here in LA in television and stuff He had told me God watch Fight Club And when I told him the premise of my book and he said exactly that quote to me because my book is in some ways About losing all hope. Yeah. Yeah because it is In relationship. Yeah in my book the biggest takeaway the biggest takeaway and it’s for all human relationships Not just with narcissus is manager expectations yeah, all of us have limitations narcissism lots of limitations, but if you can manage your expectations Then you can keep a relationship, you know, you can make it work, but you may not want to make it work But don’t expect a narcissistic, um bursting through the door carrying about your day with bunches of flowers and saying hey, honey I want to hear about all of that your successes and vulnerabilities I don’t care find someone else who does and maybe stay in a relationship but have friends who do care Well, this has been wonderful. Is there any last words you want to say? Um, I would say that love is love is good for us Like I think that you know, I this kind of a conversation it’s easy to believe that love is You know love is a sort of dark, you know, sort of Roma soul, you know Prickly icky icky space love is love is good. It’s a healing force. It’s healthy for us However, we often give it away to the wrong people I think we spend 90 percent of our energy on the most toxic people in our life and then we give the and we give the bet we give a best energy to the worst people and we give our no energy to the To the best people in our lives if I made that earlier Yeah, so we don’t we almost need to flip the paradigm give the best of yourself To the best people in your life and then for the people who don’t aren’t really present in your life, you know Don’t stop stop handing yourself over on a silver platter. There’s no value yourself there’s a part of me that kind of wants to be a sociopath Yeah yet have you dealt with people that look like like that I had a student once come up to me and said could you teach me to be more? Sociopathic a narcissistic because it’ll do me so much good in my business. I’ll succeed so much more Mm-hmm, and I was like my god, this is no I will not be your narcissism coach, you know So it’s easy to do like not ever care about what you know only don’t care about other people Don’t be empathic be grandiose. But like I couldn’t do that. I I have to say More than a how do you know why you’re not 100 I believe you because I’m I you can see I’m probably too empathic at times Um, I’m not entitled, you know, I’m the person, you know But you can’t just say that I live it if you spent a day with me you’d see I’d say You know if you track someone for a 24-hour period of a real good handle on it, you know, it’s like pornography I know it when I see it I know a narcissist when I see them and now, you know, all the sub sub parts of it So when people ask me all the time, they’re like a Mayan horse is this I’m like no. No you’re good Okay, you don’t think I am you’re you’re like, you’re one of those costs people. I’d need to do like a 24 hour follow I think you’re just too you’re you’re to self-reflective and too concerned about it But I think the swimming pool you’re swimming in right now and succeeding in it pulls for it. So for you it’s almost required It’s almost required but you can fake it like you can play at a role but then you have to say I need to make sure this doesn’t bleed over into the authentic Andrew like I can still be a Loving attentive good Person, but I can play the game I need to play to succeed on this platform that may require me to be more superficial or be more Validation seeking you. Just got it. You got to be on top of it once you have some awareness you’re in a better position to control if you’re like now I’m not like that at all that lack of insight and Narcissus have no insight you’re showing a little bit too much insight. You really throw you under the bridge there? Yeah. Oh, yeah no to Completely dismiss you off. Yeah, no Cool would you oh yeah, would you uh, I guess I mean, I’ll probably edit this out, but What do you would you be able to get in touch with a narcissist? I would want to come on the show That would be hard though because I could never refer anyone clinically Does that make sense cuz of confidentiality or all of that? I mean I could the problem is I could say and I can blur their face and right And their voice is right, but I could never suggest it to client like I did that that Bible I’m not allowed to do but I could definitely Sniff around the circle’s I’m in like my students will likely know people are narcissistic and see if they’re willing to talk about well What’s hard is like they’ve ninety-nine percent. What won’t? You want to make that they reach out though, you could do reach out to social mean. It’s how you know Someone will come through largely because they’d want to be on because they’d want to on yeah, they’d like the validation Yeah, so it’s almost like they’re an easy group to get for some. Yeah to find the true like diehard one I feel like I just have to wait until I run into one right but then what would you ask them like you make them? Come up with me on camera good look at that. Well, no, I would just I was straight up I’d be like, hey, can I interview you would be interviewing with a narcissist and and yeah They might say yes because they like the attention right? Because it’s it’s no longer as bad a word as it once was Well a trick you using that we’ll know it’s like tied to like charming and you’re right but charming villain But I kinda like sexy I’ll always say to people charm and charisma Maybe two of the most dangerous traits out there when I have a friend She says me I met a guy so charming and charismatic on my breakup. Now. Here’s my phone break up with him now No, but if I never met my father break up with him What if he’s like the whole package so dad you don’t need to leave with a charm and charisma? I say it’s sort of leave with some of your inner life like be my fault if I’d be shy and awkward on the first Day, yeah Ryan I wish I and awkward is who’s gonna stay with you when you’re 85 years old mark my words Yeah. Yeah, I think that glib glib charm and glib charisma tend to be you know They’re they’re salesman traits glib good. What’s the word me glib is is it’s almost like it’s an arrogance. It’s a Yeah audacious, but arrogant whatever. Yeah So nice of you to come, thank you Conversation yeah, I’ll link. I’ll link your website and your book and the description sounds great. Thank you And and I’m writing a third book right now on entitlement and narcissism So yeah, when’s that come out that comes out the fall around? Oh, yeah fun. Yeah Alright, thanks for watching. I will thank you. I will see you guys next (and don’t forget to like and subscribe :-D)

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